Curse

frojack · Dec 13, 2006, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Lol, yeah, the spirit Restoration is a little out of place in Communing, while they're at it.

Actually Restoration is fine where it is. It's more flexible that way. What's the point in having 3 resurrection abilities in one attribute when you would only ever use one of them at anyone one time?
Besides, it's only ever useful in spirit-heavy builds. Not really something you'd find being done by a Restorer (whatever that is). Especially when the other two are actually far better...

Quid Pro Quo · Dec 13, 2006, 12:14 AM // 00:14

/signed

Make it mysticism and even up how much its required to get +3 regen per enchant but other then that don't nerf it anymore. This is the only reason why I can use my Dervish in difficult areas such as DoA, ect.

Please devs don't ruin the skill and kill Dervish just close it off from the rest of the classes who have their own ways to survive.

exiled mat · Dec 13, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

MYSTIC Regeneration > MYSTICism

thus /signed

and about that secondairy class ranting: no sprint for other classes, no nifty ranger expertise evading moves, no spellbreaker, no "for other classes super usefull" mesmer fast casting spells, no ether prodigy (i'm addicted to this skill

), no UBER usefull ritualist spawning power skills, no paragon leadership stuff which could be very helpfull for the most warriors, no godforms and other dervish stuff.......
(did i forget the assassin? NO WAI

)

So why can those SF Mystic regeneration users abuse this?

Stoneflesh .... didn't hear of anyone using this appart for farming

BaseKid · Dec 13, 2006, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by exiled mat

So why can those SF Mystic regeneration users abuse this?

Stoneflesh .... didn't hear of anyone using this appart for farming

If you mean farming with heroways in HA, then yes maybe.

/not signed.

Moving mystic regeneration into mysticism would make it easier for a dervish to get the necessary points into it, thus making the D/N OotV spammer even easier to play putting a ton of points into mysticism.

I would sign for a different reason: The skill itself is broken not because you can "tank" with it in RA and TA (give me a break...you're not tanking b/c of the regen...stoneflesh aura reduces so much dmg) but because it itself is an enchantment, and counts towards the health regeneration. Make this not the case, and the skill is fine as it is.

Mystic regeneration should not be put into mysticism...anet did test this correctly...

the only other option i could see for this skill is to make it a 1 sec cast, although that is completely unneccessary. Putting the skill into mysticism is basically taking a healing breeze away from a wammo. Just dont make the enchantment count towards the regen, and it's all set. Think this regen is still overpowered? Check under enchantments, stoneflesh aura and then decide.

Carth` · Dec 13, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

I agree. I haven't really played dervish yet so I didn't know about any of the skills, but after this thread I have added Mystic Regeneration to my SF ele's skill bar. Since I already have 2 enchantments up all the time (attunement and Aura of Restoration), that makes it +9 regen. The fact that I am constantly spamming spells like Searing Flames already gives me 50 health every cast, but +9 regen too allows me to tank far too well.

I think a build should be constantly trying to balance itself between offence and defence. An overly defensive build like a monk, or some earth builds or warrior builds can take a lot of damage and survive well, but they aren't exactly a huge threat. But thanks to Mystic Regen, now anyone with 2 enchantments can have constant regen of +9 and tank a lot of damage. For many builds those enchantments are probably already in your build anyway, like ele's attunement.

If you have the relevant attribute at 8, here is a comparison of self-heals:

Healing Signet - heal 100 points of health, but 2 second cast makes it very easy to interrupt, and you have -40AL while using

Troll Unguent - 10 seconds of +7 regen (140 points healed), for 3 second cast, just about the easiest self-heal to interrupt in the game

Ether Feast - heal 99 points, 2 second cast, 8 sec recharge

Leader's Comfort - heal 140 health, 2 second cast, 8 sec recharge (under perfect circumstances, if you are alone it heals for only 69 health)

Mystic Regeneration - (presuming your build uses 2 enchantments) 20 seconds of +9 health regen (360 points healed), 1/4 sec cast, 5 sec recharge

Enchantment removal is not a problem, in fact it helped to have Mystic Regen because it was hard to strip my attunement since it was buried.

Of course, it does take up 3 skill slots to get this, but I had those enchantments on my bar anyway.

achilles ankle · Dec 13, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseKid

If you mean farming with heroways in HA, then yes maybe.

/not signed.

Moving mystic regeneration into mysticism would make it easier for a dervish to get the necessary points into it, thus making the D/N OotV spammer even easier to play putting a ton of points into mysticism.

I would sign for a different reason: The skill itself is broken not because you can "tank" with it in RA and TA (give me a break...you're not tanking b/c of the regen...stoneflesh aura reduces so much dmg) but because it itself is an enchantment, and counts towards the health regeneration. Make this not the case, and the skill is fine as it is.

Mystic regeneration should not be put into mysticism...anet did test this correctly...

the only other option i could see for this skill is to make it a 1 sec cast, although that is completely unneccessary. Putting the skill into mysticism is basically taking a healing breeze away from a wammo. Just dont make the enchantment count towards the regen, and it's all set. Think this regen is still overpowered? Check under enchantments, stoneflesh aura and then decide.

Ok, first of all that is completly incorrect. Healing breeze on a wammo(shudders) requires well over 8pts in healing to be effective, i thnk its only 6 regen and 8 healing. To have a skill that can give any class an istant +3 regen per enchantment is absurd. all this talk of it not counting toward its own regen.....who cares i mean all the ele's who use this(the ele's are who we are all talking about) have a minimum of 2 enchants sometimes 3 so they would still get the +9 regen....9 more regen than an ele has ever had. Any high regen on any character is a pain in the ass no matter what you ppl say(degen-conditions) and what not. If your entire bar can be emptied into an enemy and they still are not degening....ahh thers a problem there i think.

As for moving it into mysticism i /sign for that one. It just makes sense because all the classes should not be able to use this skill. Its like moving divine intervention into healing, can anyone say invincible SF sin. idk i mean cmon..its in the name.

On an end note, i dont really think this will ever happen because as far back as i can recall i dont think any skills have changed attributes, but i guess its fun argueing with each other over it.

BaseKid · Dec 13, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

basically, you missed the entire point of my post to try and ruin everything i said for saying "healing breeze on wammos" as a reference to noobs...please, read everything else i said before you scandel kk thx.

The health regen is not overpowered if you consider making it itself not counting towards the health regen...that costs 8 into earth prayers and 2 OTHER ENCHANTS for a +6 regen. looks like healing breeze on the wammo wins (haha...unless u bring an ele with stoneflesh aura, armor of earth and earth attune, but then that's plain retarded...2 skills for dmg and a rez sig? sorry, but sandstorm isn't that good for those who know what aoe is.)

/still not signed.

read my post before you do that again.

Nickhimself · Dec 13, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Here is why Mystic Regeneration should be in Mysticism (factored from my Ele's point of view, where I utilize this skill the most):

Healing Breeze @ 8 Healing Prayers: 7 Regen for 10 seconds
Healing Breeze @ 9 Healing Prayers: 8 Regen for 10 seconds
Mystic Regeneration @ 8 Earth Prayers: 9 Regen (attunement, restoration, MR) for 20 seconds

+2 regen for twice the length for the cost of: -1 Attribute from Healing Breeze.

Not all classes should be able to use this as well as they currently are able to.

/signed

Lordhelmos · Dec 13, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

retracted

Lordhelmos · Dec 13, 2006, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseKid

basically, you missed the entire point of my post to try and ruin everything i said for saying "healing breeze on wammos" as a reference to noobs...please, read everything else i said before you scandel kk thx.

The health regen is not overpowered if you consider making it itself not counting towards the health regen...that costs 8 into earth prayers and 2 OTHER ENCHANTS for a +6 regen. looks like healing breeze on the wammo wins (haha...unless u bring an ele with stoneflesh aura, armor of earth and earth attune, but then that's plain retarded...2 skills for dmg and a rez sig? sorry, but sandstorm isn't that good for those who know what aoe is.)

/still not signed.

read my post before you do that again.

And your bashing sandstorm now? Jeez.... go on dig a hole for yourself. And for your information the armor of earth, stoneflesh, mystic, attune ele is extremely easy to play and very powerful. 2 damage skills? Try 3 Shock, Aftershock, and Sandstorm. GG

Shock
Aftershock
Sandstorm
Stoneflesh
Armor of Earth
Mystic Regen
Earth Attunement
Rez

I've seriously tanked whole teams into ragequitting running this. It's insane.

~OR~

Liquid Flame
Glowing Gaze
Searing Flames
Fire Attunement
Mystic Regen
Aura of Resto
Conviction
Rez

Congrats. You have permanent +9 regen, +24 armor forever. You gain energy and 300% of a spell cost in health on cast and deal over 150-200 damage every 4 seconds. Now everyone can be a gladiator.

Lordhelmos · Dec 13, 2006, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Funniest thing in this thread:

I found this funny.

I agree MR is alittle crazy though, mostly because its duration is so long compared to recharge though.

Most Dervs run 15, 12, and the rest in earth. I like to push my limit. Dervs have a natural health bonus on armor so you can push a superior and a major. In my case im insane and like my 75 second avatar so I push for 15, 14, 9 with 2 superiors and survive just fine. However it doesnt change that fact that all dervish survival skills are in the earth prayer line. Without earth prayers you can't survive no matter what attribute spread. Instead you will one very pissed off monk draining a ton of energy keeping you alive if you choose to go all wind prayers.

The reason I say the attribute spread is tight is because you HAVE to use earth prayers as a dervish. With all your solid heals there you would be insane not to unless you have a godly prot monk behind you. Even running superior scythe and major mysticism you have to squeeze 8 into earth and still lack a good number of points to utilize wind skils without you know, dying on the frontline.

Mystic Regeneration in mysticism and a +3 cap makes sense. Its not grossly overpowered, and wont turn dervish into gods. If you sustain mystic regen and something like OotV, you wont have any way of gaining back energy to use for scythe skills anyway. You need to lose enchantments to pay for your assaults. Like I said, 10 is high cost for a dervie.

Lordhelmos · Dec 13, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by achilles ankle

Ok, first of all that is completly incorrect. Healing breeze on a wammo(shudders) requires well over 8pts in healing to be effective, i thnk its only 6 regen and 8 healing. To have a skill that can give any class an istant +3 regen per enchantment is absurd. all this talk of it not counting toward its own regen.....who cares i mean all the ele's who use this(the ele's are who we are all talking about) have a minimum of 2 enchants sometimes 3 so they would still get the +9 regen....9 more regen than an ele has ever had. Any high regen on any character is a pain in the ass no matter what you ppl say(degen-conditions) and what not. If your entire bar can be emptied into an enemy and they still are not degening....ahh thers a problem there i think.

As for moving it into mysticism i /sign for that one. It just makes sense because all the classes should not be able to use this skill. Its like moving divine intervention into healing, can anyone say invincible SF sin. idk i mean cmon..its in the name.

On an end note, i dont really think this will ever happen because as far back as i can recall i dont think any skills have changed attributes, but i guess its fun argueing with each other over it.

In a skill update after the GWWC Elemental Attunement was moved from a non-attribute enchantment into Energy Storage because of fast cast mesmers using it to abuse ele skills like quick-cast meteorshowers and lightning orbs for cheap. Skills do get moved around in rebalancing. There have been other occassions as well I believe.

~Also... the word effective and healing breeze wammo don't work in one sentence :P

Lordhelmos · Dec 13, 2006, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Effects of moving mystic regeneration into mysticism:

~No more +9 regen SF eles and invincibuilds. The skill stays locked with dervish.

~Wind Prayers open up to melee dervish because health regen can be sustained without forcing points into earth prayers. (Althought vital boon, sig of pious light, sandstorm, conviction, and mirage cloak are all there making it still the premier line.)

~Because of consolidation of points into mysticism, dervish can stack more points into attributes from other professions without being forced down the earth path for survival. (burning speed, armor of frost, other goodies.)

I think it would be a good balancing move. The dervish becomes more flexible and a tad bit better with more points to play with and there will be no more secondary class abuse and invincibuilds running high damage attacks with insane regen.

Also dervish have 70 armor, 85 with 3 enchants stacked that constantly are lost and recast. Just using mystic regeneration alone while standing on the frontline alone wont save you. Even with mysticism having regen in it, one burn from searing flames locks the majority of your regen and the melee damage from enemies in that state will kill you, not to mention Deep Wound. However, you will have a decent level of survivability with regen on. This is a perfect balance for a frontline melee derv.

Sable Phoenix · Dec 13, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

It seems like the foundation of this entire thread is the assumption that every Dervish will, and in fact must, carry Mystic Regeneration. This is utterly false.

Mystic Regeneration is fine as it is.

scorche · Dec 13, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

i dont think the skill should be changed, but if its going to be changed, make it so taht you only receive the regen bonus form dervish enchants rather than changing the attribute it falls in

Carth` · Dec 13, 2006, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sable Phoenix

It seems like the foundation of this entire thread is the assumption that every Dervish will, and in fact must, carry Mystic Regeneration. This is utterly false.

Mystic Regeneration is fine as it is.

No, the foundation of this thread is the eles, necros and mesmers who have 2 enchantments in their build anyway being able to tank with constant +9 regen thanks to this skill. It has little to do with the dervish, except that people don't want to nerf this skill for the dervish, hence moving it into the dervish primary so a dervish can still use it.

lyra_song · Dec 13, 2006, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sable Phoenix

It seems like the foundation of this entire thread is the assumption that every Dervish will, and in fact must, carry Mystic Regeneration. This is utterly false.

Mystic Regeneration is fine as it is.

THeres a reason Elite skills are only allowed 1 per skillbar.

Some skills SHOULD NEVER be combined together, their combined powers would be unbalanced ie: (Hundred blades + Illusionary Weapon), (elemental attunement + searing flames) (Incendiary Arrows + Practiced Stance)

-------------------------
with that idea in mind
-------------------------

Mystic Regeneration by itself is already a powerful skill, when combined with other enchantments, it becomes quite unbalanced.

There are MANY Nightfall skills that will be rebalanced for the next GvG season, this is just another on that long list.

Curse You · Dec 13, 2006, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Ok, about moving Mystic Regeneration because of its name:
While we're at it, why not move these into Mysticism:

Mystic Sandstorm (earth prayers)
Mystic Sweep (scythe mastery)
Mystic Healing (wind prayers)
Mystic Twister (wind prayers)

Why not? Because it's just a stupid reason.

What about Vampiric Touch and Vampiric bite? Rangers are able to use those two skills better than any primary necro.

Or maybe Resurect, Rebirth, Light of Dwayna, Restore Life, Renew Life, and Ressurection Chant. Any secondary monk can use those to great use with very little atributes put into the coresponding atribute. Now why isn't that unbalanced?

Quite frankly, I'm against this because there are countless enchantment removers availible, most of which work without putting anything into their atribute.
As well, there are two spells that mean ruin for most heavy enchanters: Desecrate Enchantments and Defile Enchantments.

So really, if you don't like people using enchantments, play as a necro or mesmer, don't just say their too strong because your precious warrior can't hurt them.

Also, just like it can on Touch Rangers, Diversion can work wonders with enchantment spammers.

MorpheusDV · Dec 13, 2006, 06:35 AM // 06:35

/signed

This should be moved into Mysticism.

/notsigned

This is touch Ranger whining all over again. People whined and whined about how touch Rangers ruined the meta game in RA, but they lived with it and eventually found a counter.

Now Mystic Regeneration comes in, along with a few other neat skills, and people find a combo that goes well with MR. What do people do? Whine.

As it was said before, MR and Conviction are the only decent skills that a Dervish has going for it to maintain themselves. Don't screw it up, by nerfing them to the point where no one will play a Dervish anymore.

Adapt and move on. You found plenty of counters for touch Rangers, so why not MR?

Quid Pro Quo · Dec 13, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Ok, about moving Mystic Regeneration because of its name:
While we're at it, why not move these into Mysticism:

Mystic Sandstorm (earth prayers)
Mystic Sweep (scythe mastery)
Mystic Healing (wind prayers)
Mystic Twister (wind prayers)

Why not? Because it's just a stupid reason.

Yeah thats the only reason people want it in mysticism. /sarcasm

Quote:

What about Vampiric Touch and Vampiric bite? Rangers are able to use those two skills better than any primary necro.

Yeah but how many other classes are using them? I've seen a Warrior, Monk, Elementalist, Necro and Assassin all using mystic regeneration so far. Its getting kind of silly. They all have their own ways to survive that are pretty much kept to themselves why are they all using the Dervish way which is relying on their enchantments?

Quote:

Or maybe Resurect, Rebirth, Light of Dwayna, Restore Life, Renew Life, and Ressurection Chant. Any secondary monk can use those to great use with very little atributes put into the coresponding atribute. Now why isn't that unbalanced?

I don't believe that the foundation of Monks is based on the fact they can ressurect so no its not really the same (Dervish rely on their enchantments). Now if you show me a secondary Monk who is ressurecting team mates and healing their health back up just as well as a primary Monk while healing the rest of the team still then maybe there is a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MorpheusDV

As it was said before, MR and Conviction are the only decent skills that a Dervish has going for it to maintain themselves. Don't screw it up, by nerfing them to the point where no one will play a Dervish anymore.

Exactly! Its hard enough trying to stay in the front lines without hogging up the Monk's attention. This is the reason why a lot of Dervish are hated so much in PuGs. This is a skill that is easily defeated but a good way for the Dervish to survive which is what the Dervish are all about.